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Post by Haldrie on Mar 13, 2007 12:09:25 GMT -5
To be perfectly honest, I have been playing FFIX in pSX for so long I don't even notice any of these little problems even when I run it on my 47" HDTV with the PC input coming from my laptop. I also had to look at the picures in that first link Ultima has in the above post side by side before I noticed what the person was talking about.
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Post by patrickp on Mar 13, 2007 15:50:36 GMT -5
I have to say, Haldrie, that while I agree with your views on how we like view pSX, I don't think that's really any reason to object to an NTSC filter in pSX. After all, it would be like Bilinear interpolation: you don't have to use it if you don't want to...
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Post by Haldrie on Mar 13, 2007 20:47:52 GMT -5
I'm not objecting I'm just giving a different perspective. I know it could be a nice thing to have but it isn't really needed in order to emulate so if pSX Author has seen this I'm sure he's taking in to consideration.
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Post by Ultima on Mar 13, 2007 21:19:17 GMT -5
I don't think a NTSC filter will get rid of the dithering though Yah, I'd actually meant that "the complaints due to the dithering effect" would go away. Dithering is certainly needed if the emulator is to remain true to the original PlayStation, and getting rid of dithering is not something I'd want to see (and it would be simpler to just not emulate dithering if one of the purposes of the NTSC filter would be to get rid of the dithering effect anyhow). But yes, those people are just whiners indeed ;D And yes, it's not a necessary feature, but a nice one nonetheless that doesn't detract from the emulator's goals
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Post by kinghanco on Mar 15, 2007 11:45:24 GMT -5
I will try NTSC Filter when it get added. It not going to kill me to try it out on pSX. If I don't like it then I won't use it. I still use bilinear interpolation though.
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Post by emulover on Mar 16, 2007 4:13:32 GMT -5
Most console games are made with tv's in mind, so even if the programming and beta testing was done on monitors, the final color corrections are done for TV's, even though its not as important as it was with the nes and the snes (at least half of the colors are made by the tv, not the game in some games).
That psx games have ntsc printed on the box has nothing to do with this fact. TV's naturally so a kind of bilinear filtering where 2 adjacent pixels get blended into 1, it seems that the play station depended on this effect for several of its games.
This would mean that the only way to get the correct image is to use the NTSC filter, or cheat and undither/filter that layer with a filter.
About the scanlines, you can optionally disable them fully in the NTSC filter (which i do because my tv didnt have visable scanlines (unless your at less dan 5 CM distance))
PS: I checked those reports, and indeed ePSXe seems to be using the cheat/hack i mention to get rid of it, on a regular tv screen those pixels would become lines or highlights
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Post by Ultima on Mar 16, 2007 10:12:21 GMT -5
Most console games are made with tv's in mind Yeah, that's the way I see it too. ... many other complaints that have been posted here comparing pSX with the real PlayStation came as a result of the fact that there are differences between the monitor and the television ... Most recent case in point: forums.ngemu.com/psx-emulator/86633-why-emulator-ugly.htmlAnd that's despite the fact that the original poster in that *saw* the FAQ entry (not sure about whether he *read* it though ).
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Post by TheCloudOfSmoke on Mar 16, 2007 11:17:18 GMT -5
... many other complaints that have been posted here comparing pSX with the real PlayStation came as a result of the fact that there are differences between the monitor and the television ... Most recent case in point: forums.ngemu.com/psx-emulator/86633-why-emulator-ugly.htmlAnd that's despite the fact that the original poster in that *saw* the FAQ entry (not sure about whether he *read* it though ). I saw that thread over there too. I was going to tell him that we are actually having a discussion about making the graphics worse in this thread... for the purpose of making the graphics more accurate, of course. In my opinion, sometimes crappy is better. Especially in this case.
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Post by patrickp on Mar 16, 2007 12:31:08 GMT -5
Well, if the NTSC filter cab be used without scanlines, I'm more interested. Filtering actually varies between versions of pSX anyway; the Linux version definitely has nicer filtering than the Windows version, despite the fact that they're both bilinear filters.
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amano
New Member
Posts: 42
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Post by amano on Apr 3, 2007 17:28:23 GMT -5
Well. The output and the look of the scanlines varied between different TV sets. Rather modern sets had a better picture.
As long as I can still switch to the much faster bilinear filter, I would love to see a NTSC filter though (then I can see if my computer is modern enough to "stand" it). The NTSC filter just gives you this warm, nostalgic feeling (unless it brings your fps down).
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Post by Ultima on Apr 3, 2007 20:23:28 GMT -5
Mm...? Switch? Bilinear filtering and the proposed NTSC filter wouldn't be mutually exclusive -- one wouldn't replace the other, so you could use them together, or pick and choose. According to blargg, the filter isn't that intensive (at least for the adaptations for those specific consoles that he has available). Since the filter would apply only to the final image drawn to screen anyway, I don't think the performance hit for PlayStation would be all that different. Worth noting is that the filters he currently has up on his page only seem to accept pixels up to 16-bit RGB in color depth. What I'm wondering is how making it accept 32-bit RGB pixels (which pSX uses, right?) would affect performance (if at all)...
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Post by kinghanco on Apr 4, 2007 0:44:16 GMT -5
www.slack.net/~ant/libs/ntsc.html - 3rd picture of those games snapshot. That what it look like on my big Sony tv when I run my games on my Playstation machine. Blur with light brown scan lines. I would like to see 2 options on pSX. 1. For Blur: Put how much blur that we want our screen to show or match it with our screen. 2. For Scan lines: Light to dark. Change the color of scan lines.
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Post by patrickp on Apr 4, 2007 13:08:20 GMT -5
Most filters seem to be on or off, not adjustable. I'm not familiar with the NTSC filter, but maybe it is adjustable then? Similarly, a feature like scanlines would usually be simply on or off; again, I'm not familiar with the NTSC filter. I think what is much more important (and apparently can be done with this filter) is to be able to enable or disable scanlines. Personally I feel that, although a good filter can be useful, scanlines are pointless for me - all they accomplish is to obscure the image, and that's not why pSX is my Playstation emulator of choice.
It's true that for me, as a PAL TV user, scanlines would have been less noticeable anyway, but even before I discovered Playstation emulation many years back, I was already running my Playstation into an AIW card, as I liked the clearer picture on a monitor in comparison to that on a TV screen.
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Post by kinghanco on Apr 4, 2007 13:21:53 GMT -5
Yea monitors don't have scan lines. Just like my LCD screen.
Did you know that Bsnes have a option that you turn the scan lines dark to nothing. I don't know byuu removed that option or not. I haven't mess with it for a while. Or was it Nestopia? (I probably lost on which ones it was.)
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Post by TheCloudOfSmoke on Apr 4, 2007 16:01:29 GMT -5
The NTSC filter in Nestopia has fully adjustable scanlines while the NTSC filter in ZSNES does not have fully adjustable scanlines (IIRC). You have to either use the NTSC filter or the scanlines in ZSNES (correct me if I'm wrong). Every other option in the NTSC filter is fully adustable by a slider. I have talked to blargg through e-mail suggesting a noise element to the filter. He seems to agree on the idea that noise is a noticable element of a NTSC TV's picture. I hope to see it in future updates of the filter. kinghanco: scanlines in BSNES and Nestopia are fully adustable.
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