Spyro 1, 2 and 3 [NTSC-U] with pSX 1.9

[Haldrie]

Settings used for all three games:
pSX version: 1.9
bios: SCPH7001.BIN, SCPH1001.BIN *edit*
settings: default
Image format: cue/bin (CDRwin) (emulated through Dameon Tools)
OS: Window XP Home
Hardware: P4HT 3GHz, 504MB RAM, Intel Graphics using 224MB shared memoy, Realtec HD Audio card

Spyro The Dragon [SCUS-94228]:
This game appears to work perfectly.

Spyro 2 - Ripto's Rage [SCUS-94425]:
The only issue I saw for this game was that when playing the cut-scenes, the sound will suddenly stop competely. I did manage to get the sound to play further on the first cut-scene by disabling hardware acceleration on my sound card but doing so caused A/V to go out of synch, the game to run slow and the audio to skip a lot. I didn't bother with it much after that.

In ePSXe I got the audio to play completely by using the "ePSXe SPU core 1.5.2" plugin but the sound was a bit out of synch and this plugin lacks some much needed sound emulation so some audio effects did not play properly with it.

Also, there is a chance that this game might have Anti-Mod protection which might be the source to this problem. I say this because of Spyro 3 (see below).

Other then that the game seems to work fine although I did not play much because it's hard to know what to do next when the cut-scenes contain speech and no subtitles. I have only played this with an emulator since I never had a chance to play on the real PSX.

Spyro: Year of the Dragon [SLUS-94467]:
This game has Anti-Mod protection which kicks in an the main menu. I know this because I tried playing it using a special swap trick I learned and got a "Software Terminated" message shortly after "Press Start" appeared on the screen. This does not show up in any emulator but may have something to do with the other problems in this game as well as Spyro 2 if it contains it as well.

There is no audio on the main menu at all. I did hear a poping sound when I returned to it after selecting "Quit Game" from the pause menu. ePSXe does not have this problem however. The cut-scene problem is also happening like it does in Spyro 2.

Another issue in the long loading time for the first cut-scene. I started a new game and the screen just went black on me for about a minute or two. I was about to give up on it when it suddenly showed the "loading" picture but other then that and the other above mentioned problems everything else seems to work fine.

Final note:
First, I did not patch the images in any way. Second, I'm sorry for the ePSXe references, I just wanted to give the pSX developers something they could reference to for a possible fix. Third, I am aware that there is already a topic for Spyro 3 but I needed to reference 2 and 3's problems together so I decided to make a new topic for all of the Spyro games combined. Also, the other topic was out of date anyway and didn't provide much detail so maybe this will be better. Sorry for it being so long but you did ask for a "precise description of the problem".

I should also note that no error messages were displayed in the log window while running the games even during the problem points mentioned.

I have really been enjoying this emulator and love what you guys are doing with it. The suggestions thread is also a nice touch. I hope you guys can figure out how to get these games working soon.

[pSX Author]

Are you sure Spyro3 doesn't work? I have completed it using pSX...

You must have either an original CD and subcode reading must be enabled (and working - check the message in the console window)... or you must have a .ccd image (which is the only format currently supported by pSX which can have subcode).

[Haldrie]

The only thing that is displayed in the log window are these two messages:
"IoControl: Using SPTI (Full subcode)"
"CDROM: Using IoControl"

I even turned on the "sound status" display to see what's going on and all of the registers go silent along with the actual audio output from the emulator.

I admit I did download the copy I'm using. I know it works however because the I used the same "swap trick" I use on a PSX on a PS2 that I had and I was able to play all the way through (beat the Sorceress and all) as the PS2 bypassed the Anti-Mod protection on the disc. The menu sound issue did happen on the PS2 but is was only a delayed loading that I think might have been due to how the disc was burned in the first place.

If it's working for you then I'm guessing it's a sound card issue. I have had this same problem with ePSXe using a Sigmatel sound card on a laptop I have that's getting repaired at the moment. I've wanted to test this on an actual Sound Blaster card but I have never had a computer that had one to be able to test this theory. Updating the drivers has not been successful in this case.

Also, I know that the Greatest Hits version of Spyro 3 fixed a lot of bugs that the original had. I belive that the copy I have is the original version as I have run into some of those bugs that I read about on various web sites. I also know that Tomb Raider's original and greatest hits versions share the same serial code (SLUS-00152) so this might also be the case with this game. I'm not sure as I have never been able to see a copy of the Greatest Hits version. Which version of Spyro 3 did you play with?

[smegforbrain]

Spyro 3 NTSC-U has copyright protection. I don't know how I missed that one on my list.

Spyro 2 NTSC-U, though, does not have protection as far as I know.

For giggles, try running Spyro 3 with a PAL bios. Hell, try Spyro 2, too. We've had luck elsewhere in getting protected games to work that way that haven't already been solved by versions of pSX since 1.7.


And pSX Author, if the game works, shouldn't you be reporting that?

[Haldrie]

Ok, changing the bios did fix the menu music and the delayed loading on Spyro 3 but the cut-scenes are still cuting off the audio only seconds after they start.



Here is a screenshot I took of Spyro 2 during the first cut-scene when you start a new game with the sound status overlay on. Register 00 is suppose to be playing sound during the entire cut-scene but as you can see from this screenshot this register has gone silent. You can also see the there is 1171k of sound data in the audio cache. Now originally I was willing to believe that is was just my sound card but if that is the case then why would pSX also show silence in the registers when there should clearly be sound playing?

As I have also stated this problem occurs with ePSXe as well under most of the SPU plugins available for it. I have had this problem ever since I got a copy of Spyro 3 and only with some major tweaking of the SPU plugins in ePSXe was I ever able to hear just what was being said during the cut-scenes and A/V synch was always a problem and I never knew if I would be able to hear the next cut-scene without the sound cutting off on it too.

That being said you can see that this is not just a problem that I am having with these emulators but with the game in general and I know it isn't my copy because I said before that I managed to get it working by using a special swap trick on my PS2 which bypassed the Anti-Mod protection and ran the game...somewhat perfectly. I was able to beat the Sorceress and everything without much trouble.

I managed to get copies of 12 different PSX bios images to test them and none of them have been able to solve this problem so whatever is going on it has something to do with how pSX and ePSXe are emulating them.

Also, pSX, I did try using the original CloneCD image that I had and it did the same thing. The cue/bin image I now have was made using CDRwin in RAW mod which I believe also reads the subcode off the disc and adds it to the image file. I know it works for CD+G discs and copy protected PC games that read the subcode. What games use Libscrypt or whatever so I can get a copy or them (if I don't have a game with that protection already) and try them with this cue/bin format to see if maybe that really is the problem?

[patrickp]

The .cue/.bin format simply doesn't include subcode information, haldrie. With the CloneCD .ccd/.img/.sub format, the .sub files are used for the subcode information.

[Haldrie]

Well, I understand what you are telling me, patrickp, and I have tried using the original CloneCD image that I have which game me the same results as my cue/bin copy made from this exact mounted image through CDRwin. This is why I asked what games have Libscrypt protection on them so that I can eliminate the missing subcode as the cause of the problem. I also asked this because I knew someone was going to say something about that.

Now, pSX Author, you told me that you were able to play Spyro 3 with no problems. What version, settings and bios did you use and how did you play the game (image or CD)? I would like to try these settings myself to see if it will work for me or if maybe your computer is doing something different then mine is. In that case your computer's specs might also be helpful to me in trying to figure this out. I have been wanting to properly play this game on my computer for several years now and the cut-scenes are the only thing keeping me from doing so.

Sorry for the way I'm typing, I just got finish watching CSI so it's somewhat rubbing off.

[patrickp]

Have a look at Megagames, haldrie: looks like the US NTSC versions of Spyro 2 and 3 are both copy protected. It won't be Libcrypt protection, though: that's more usually used on European PAL versions.

Are all the components of the CloneCd images you have present: that is, is there an appropriate .ccd, .img and .sub file for each game? Like .bin files, which will run for most purposes without their .cue files, .img files will often run satisfactorily without the associated .ccd and .sub files, so people often leave them out when passing images along.

I've noticed that ePSXe will sometimes run copy protected .img images successfully without the associated .ccd and .sub files, while pSX needs them to run those images. I'm not sure that this actually demonstrates a superiority on ePSXe's part, as I think it may be achieving this by not trying to emulate the game as accurately as pSX does.

[Haldrie]

Yes, all of the CloneCD files are there including a cue file which I don't bother with. I don't believe in using a CloneCD image if it doesn't have all of the files. I did try reextracting the image without the subcode while it was mounted in a virtual drive and it did not run any differently then the image with the subcode. I have even tested the subcode issue with some original discs that I have that are copy protected in the same way as the Spyro games and they don't run any differently without the subcode in pSX either except that they flash the "Software Terminated" message when using a US bios file even when running staight off the CD on my one CD drive that is capable of reading them perfectly.

Trust me, patrickp, I have taken into consideration everything that you have asked me already about subcodes, images and all of that and no matter what I do I still get the same result both in pSX and in ePSXe. Not to sound rude or anything but everything you keep asking me I have already answered in the above posts. There is a reason I typed all of that info up there. The above picture and the description below it are something I wish you would seriously take into consideration.

I should also add that I just recently decided to get a few ppf patches to try out and the results were also the samed. In fact I never could get the ones for Spyro 3 to run. They gliched the PS logo and just played sound with a garbled video overlay but the Spyro 2 one after I ran it without any of the featrues enabled exept the option to fix the protection did ran the game the same way as if I never applied the patch in the first place (exept for the menu at the begining that it). I played the first cut-scene to test it out and the sound cut off in the exact same spot. Right after Spyro runs past the sheep and right after the camera angle changes. The first cut-scene in Spyro 3 cuts off after about 2 seconds as the camera is still paning.

Now don't get me wrong, the games do run. Spyro 3 ran near perfect when I used on my PS2 using a swap trick. There was only an issue with disc access on the menu but once it finally loaded the music the game ran fine. I even beat the Sorceress, yes beat, without the game wiping my records and restarting the game like it did with my brother when he used a Gameshark code to bypass the protection on our original PSX system. I blaimed the CD access problem on the PS2 and some skipping voice tracks (which I belive are in XA audio) on our original PS system to a bad burn since I have even had issues burning backup copies of FFIX to replace our damaged originals (mostly some major skipping FMVs on the PS and in emulator when run from burned copy).

Anyway, until pSX Author repies to my last post about what settings he used to play Spyro 3 so I can try them out myself to see if they work for me, I'm going to have to assume that the problem lies in the emulators (both pSX and ePSXe) and not my image file because I have ruled out pretty much everything that has to do with my image of these games.

[patrickp]

The .cue file is only included with the CloneCD as a convenience, haldrie; CloneCD gives you the option to create one or not. The .ccd file apparently contains the .cue file data, anyway.

One thing, though: I just noticed that in your first post you mentioned you're using scph-7001. Oddly enough, the later Playstation BIOSs often don't seem to work as well as the earlier ones. scph-7502, the final PAL BIOS is terrible. I'd suggest you try an earlier one such as scph-1001.

[Haldrie]

Well, I already know about why the cue file is there as I happen to have a copy of the latest version of CloneCD myself, SCPH-7502 is the bios I used when smegforbrain suggested I use a PAL bios which did fix the missing menu music and the loading delay for the first cut-scene (but nothing else) and SCPH-1001 is the bios I have been using since I first starting using Playstation emulators. I has only been within the last couple of weeks that I even considered using other bios files and I have been having this problem with Spyro 3 for seveal years now.

Sorry if I sound rude or inconsiderate but I do know more then your giving me credit for. I understand your trying to rule out any fact that it is the emulator's fault for my problem but that may just be the case in this situation. Belive me I have tried all kinds of things to get this game to work over the years and the only thing that has been able to run this game is my PS2.

I know your trying to help, patickp, and I really do appreciate it but right now the only person that has the information I need right now is pSX Author since he is the only one to admit so far that this game worked for him. Thank you for trying though.

[EDIT]
I just got a reply from someone that I asked to try their copy of Spyro 3 with pSX and they are also having the same problem as I am so it's not just me.

[states]

A) pSX Author, this is a fine emu you have here. Keep up the great work.

B) .bin files do include the subcode if you copy the CDs in RAW mode. Subcode information is not file format specific, it's a feature of the CD disc structure in itself. The Playstation reads CD-ROM XA discs, these discs are in mode 2, the beginning of one of these CD's frames is composed of 12 bytes of sync data (0x00, 0xff, 0xff, 0xff, 0xff, 0xff, 0xff, 0xff, 0xff, 0xff, 0xff, 0x00), 4 bytes of header data, 8 bytes of subcode data, 2048 bytes of user data, 4 bytes of EDC, and 276 bytes of ECC (Error Detection/Correction Codes). I know this because I did a study on the CD's structure for a project in college.

C) The .ccd files are just a description of the ISO, just a way to speed up the reading process.

D) This problem with Spyro 2 and Spyro 3, which also happens with Valkery Profile, also happens with me in ePSXe, PSXeven, and pSX. But it doesn't happen in xebra or SSSPSX (at least with spyro 3 that doesn't happen).

[EDIT]: And that someone haldrie described would be me.

[Haldrie]

I just tried SSSPSX's latest version and not only does it run Spyro 3 (I haven't tried Spyro 2 yet) but it also supports the rumble feature on my gamepad.

I know that you are trying make pSX run exactly like a real Playstation, pSX Author, but you might want to consider looking at other emulators and pluings for them that can run the games that pSX can't yet and maybe by doing that you can figure out how to get these games to run with pSX. Just a suggestion, I know it 's a bit more compicated then that since, like you with pSX, not everyone is sharing the source code for their emulators but I'm sure that someone like you that has done such an amazing job on pSX so far can figure it out.

Even though there are other emulators out there capable of doing thing that pSX is not yet (or will never be) capable of, this will definitly be my emulator of choice once it's perfected.

[pSX Author]

states said:

A) pSX Author, this is a fine emu you have here. Keep up the great work.

Thanks!

B) .bin files do include the subcode if you copy the CDs in RAW mode. Subcode information is not file format specific, it's a feature of the CD disc structure in itself. The Playstation reads CD-ROM XA discs, these discs are in mode 2, the beginning of one of these CD's frames is composed of 12 bytes of sync data (0x00, 0xff, 0xff, 0xff, 0xff, 0xff, 0xff, 0xff, 0xff, 0xff, 0xff, 0x00), 4 bytes of header data, 8 bytes of subcode data, 2048 bytes of user data, 4 bytes of EDC, and 276 bytes of ECC (Error Detection/Correction Codes). I know this because I did a study on the CD's structure for a project in college.

Well, you didn't study hard enough then .bin files do not contain subcode - this is because subcode is out-of-band data - it is not part of the sector data. There are 96 bytes of subcode associated with each sector, not 8. The reasons for this are complicated, but it is to do with the low-level structure of CD sectors (the MMC spec is a good source of information about this if you are interested, but generally you do not need to know about it because you are never exposed to the low-level data format).

The subcode is split into 8 channels called P-V. The P and Q sub-channels hold timing information, only the Q channel comes into play for LibCrypt copy protection. The Q channel stores the time of each sector (both absolute and relative to the beginning of the track) - LibCrypt stashes a secret key in the Q channel by "corrupting" some of the entries. On the PS1 you cannot directly read the subcode, but you can ask for the time of a sector. What LibCrypt does is carefully monitor the "time" of each sector, it watches for sectors where the time does not change (due to it being corrupt) - using this technique it stores a secret 16bit binary key. In Spyro3 this check happens on the title page just before the music starts playing, and also at several other random points in the game. This is not the only protection used by Spyro3, but the rest is just basically obfuscation and self-modifying code to prevent hacking (which is still quite tricky to emulate - actually getting this to work was harder than the subcode trickery

Also, your description of the EDC/ECC only holds true for Mode1 sectors, PS1 games tend to use Mode2 (which have 2352 bytes of payload, similar to redbook audio sectors).

C) The .ccd files are just a description of the ISO, just a way to speed up the reading process.

.ccd is the proprietry CloneCD file format. The .ccd file itself contains similar information to a .cue file. CloneCD files can contain sub-code (which is stored in a .sub file).

[pSX Author]

Anyway..... I think this problem is specific to the american release of Spyro3. I have just tried the european one and it still works fine.

I don't think the american one is LibCrypt protected - I believe it only has anti-mod protection.