mz
New Member
Posts: 19
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Post by mz on Aug 1, 2009 3:14:51 GMT -5
pSX removes slowdowns that happens on the real hardware. I would consider that a bug, not a feature. I rarely use pSX or ePSXe anymore. I've modified PCSX to support a lot of new features that I've always wanted in PS emulators (input rerecording, cheat support, RAM search, RAM watch, fast-forward, customizable hotkeys, etc.), and I only use the other emulators when some games don't work with it. I'm about to finish adding Lua scripting support right now, which makes PCSX's possibilities almost unlimited ( watch this). I'm hoping pSX v1.14 will add some of these features, though. ;D Also, you can modify the PCSX source to make the emulated PlayStation CPU 20 times faster if you want, which also removes slowdowns among other things.  |
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Post by psicomaniaco on Aug 1, 2009 8:09:58 GMT -5
pSX removes slowdowns that happens on the real hardware. I would consider that a bug, not a feature. Well, ignoring the limitations of the real hardware is a bug??? Ok then. I hope they never "fix" this "bug". Delta Force is unplayable on the real hardware and/or EPSXE. |
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Post by Gamesoul Master on Aug 1, 2009 16:52:30 GMT -5
pSX removes slowdowns that happens on the real hardware. I would consider that a bug, not a feature. It's neither a bug, nor a feature. If pSX is doing the same thing a real PS1 does, and it happens to run at fullspeed more often because of more powerful hardware, that has nothing to do with the emulator at all. |
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Post by psicomaniaco on Aug 1, 2009 23:08:55 GMT -5
Makes me wonder though why the other emulators don't do the same. Even Connectix VGS preserved the infamous slowdowns.
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Post by Heihachi_73 on Aug 2, 2009 0:26:13 GMT -5
They don't do the same because the other emulators all decide to use the archaic PSEmu system, which was originally designed to run games (originally fan-made demos) at a playable speed on a Pentium 200. Nothing has really changed since, just more and more patches to get other games running and looking 'prettier' at some ridiculously high resolution.
These days, no-one codes anything for the PSEmu plugin system either, except for the rare update to Pete's plugins. For example, you won't find a decent pixel perfect graphics plugin for ePSXe that actually works with more than a handful of games. The EZHsoft GPU was abandoned in 2002, it ran a few games nicely and fast, but for others it would do nothing at all or hang/crash - It couldn't even run Tekken 1 when I tested it.
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mz
New Member
Posts: 19
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Post by mz on Aug 2, 2009 1:02:45 GMT -5
 It's neither a bug, nor a feature. If pSX is doing the same thing a real PS1 does, and it happens to run at fullspeed more often because of more powerful hardware, that has nothing to do with the emulator at all. Er... What? "pSX is doing the same thing a real PS1 does" != remove slowdowns. More powerful hardware has nothing to do with anything. Nestopia (a cycle-accurate open-source NES emulator) wouldn't have so much lag in most NES games if that were the case... What if there were games relying on the slow processor of the PS to do something? On an ultra fast computer CPU they would run horrible, if your theory would be nearly truth. Makes me wonder though why the other emulators don't do the same. Even Connectix VGS preserved the infamous slowdowns. I already told you how easy would be to do the same on other emulators. There are many reasons as for why the emulated systems don't depend on their host's speed (it'd break compatibility, for example). They don't do the same because the other emulators all decide to use the archaic PSEmu system, which was originally designed to run games (originally fan-made demos) at a playable speed on a Pentium 200. Nothing has really changed since, just more and more patches to get other games running and looking 'prettier' at some ridiculously high resolution. /facepalm These days, no-one codes anything for the PSEmu plugin system either ePSXe and the dozens of PCSX's forks depend on that system. They are updated much more frequently than pSX, last time I checked. PCSX-Reloaded and PCSX-DF update their plugins too. For example, you won't find a decent pixel perfect graphics plugin for ePSXe that actually works with more than a handful of games. --- The lack of slowdowns in pSX probably means inaccurate timing, and only people with access to its source code can know for sure if it is a bug or a deliberate feature. Someone should ask pSX Author directly about it, instead of keep talking so much non-sense.  |
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Post by psicomaniaco on Aug 2, 2009 7:02:15 GMT -5
The lack of slowdowns in pSX probably means inaccurate timing, and only people with access to its source code can know for sure if it is a bug or a deliberate feature. Someone should ask pSX Author directly about it, instead of keep talking so much non-sense. Ok genious, I see that you are a bit edgy. I really don't give a shit if its a bug, a feature or whatever. The lack of slowdowns is the main reason why I use pSX, so I hope this never changes. But... " inaccurate timing"  ? In pSX? Ok then. |
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Post by Gamesoul Master on Aug 2, 2009 9:47:47 GMT -5
It's neither a bug, nor a feature. If pSX is doing the same thing a real PS1 does, and it happens to run at fullspeed more often because of more powerful hardware, that has nothing to do with the emulator at all. Er... What? "pSX is doing the same thing a real PS1 does" != remove slowdowns. More powerful hardware has nothing to do with anything. Nestopia (a cycle-accurate open-source NES emulator) wouldn't have so much lag in most NES games if that were the case... What if there were games relying on the slow processor of the PS to do something? On an ultra fast computer CPU they would run horrible, if your theory would be nearly truth. I understand your point. I guess I was operating more on the assumption that they used their own custom timers (or a time counter in milliseconds, for instance) instead of using the processor's timing (which seems rather foolish to me, even if all PS1's use the same processor). Though one point related to the other (mostly ignored) portion of this argument... If most "other emulators" seem to preserve these infamous slowdowns (whatever they are), and the slowdowns are ones that happen on real hardware, I would imagine that pSX not having these slowdowns truly would be a feature. I find it hard to imagine that pSX Author, who is writing pSX to be an accurate emulator, managed to miss something that most other emulators' authors apparently didn't (especially considering many of those other emulators don't even focus on accuracy like pSX does). Slightly off-topic... I tried googling these "infamous slowdowns" and couldn't find a damn thing. What games have them? I'd like to see them for myself (hopefully I have at least one of the games... lol). I assume they're nothing like the slowdowns on games like the PSP port of FFT (where the slowdowns are actually improper FPS limitation at certain points), otherwise we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, eh? |
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Post by psicomaniaco on Aug 2, 2009 19:58:49 GMT -5
Most PSX games have slowdowns on some points. One that's easy to notice is Castlevania: SOTN. At some points the game seems to run at slow motion on the real console. For example: Its easily noticed on that undead boss that's hanging with chains, and some huge flies atack us. That boss fight is WAY more fun on pSX than on the real hardware because it plays at a constant speed (I imagine it runs like the game creators wanted it to run), while it slow downs as more flies fills the screen. Also try going to that diagonal tower on the inverted castle. Its very slow in there, and if you use the mist form, its even slower. Games like Final Fantasy 8 and Grandia present slowdowns when some spells are cast (easily to notice in Grandia). pSX also makes the games more smooth. Some games, to avoid slowdowns, skip frames when the screen is full of things (on the real hardware). Delta Force is a nice example. The framerate is SO bad that it seems to show no more than 10 frames per second. Wierd enough, when playing on EPSXE, the emulator shows 60 FPS all the time, but the game runs sluggish as puke. On the real hardware the game is also sluggish; Skip too many frames, and gets slow when more than one enemy is on the screen (gets hard to aim, btw). On pSX, runs smooth as silk. Oh, and try playing "R-Type Delta" on the real hardware, then try pSX. You'll NEVER go back to the console. There are tons of other games. But you have to pay attention. Do as I did many times: play a game for hours on the console, then test the same game on pSX. You'll notice the difference. |
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Post by Gamesoul Master on Aug 3, 2009 6:48:32 GMT -5
I played SotN, FFVIII, and Grandia a lot on the real hardware (beat them all more than once). I never really noticed anything though. Not saying of course that there isn't any, but I just never really noticed them, or I possibly just dismissed them as somewhat expected (like that SotN example, which I probably noticed and just figured that the hardware simply wasn't able to keep up, which is of course the truth). All 3 I played very shortly on pSX (maybe an hour or two at most), so I guess I never really got a chance to see the difference. Except maybe one of the slowdowns in SotN. I have a vague memory of getting to one of the common slowdown points and not seeing any on pSX. I think there was actually a thread around here about that, a couple years ago.
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Post by psicomaniaco on Aug 3, 2009 6:56:07 GMT -5
Dude, you didn't noticed slowdowns on SOTN?? I mean, normally you have to pay attention to notice slowdowns on games, but the ones in SOTN are too severe in some points. Its easier to notice on the diagonal tower on the inverted castle, like I told you, but its not hard to see them too on a boss fight, specially when you have a familiar summoned. On a side note, I hope you haven't ever posted a compatibility report of a game you have only played a few hours.  |
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Post by Gamesoul Master on Aug 3, 2009 7:03:26 GMT -5
The few times I posted a report for a game I didn't play for very long, I clearly indicated the fact (intended as a quick test usually, to verify that a game still doesn't start up, or *does* start up as of the new version). In those cases, I leave the better testing up to people like you... ;D And hey, I'm not necessarily saying I didn't notice the slowdowns. I'm basically saying I don't remember them... lol. I've played many games for different consoles with slowdowns at different points, and I've grown used to the fact that programmers sometimes do a crappy job of keeping within the limitations of the console. As for that thread I was talking about... nevermind, since it was created by you... mz: i think there's a difference between "genuine" emulation and just "accurate" emulation. now I THINK what's going on with psx emu is that it's running the game just as original psx hardware would, except it's passing interpretted instructions to our PC's hardware. since it's NOT running on psx hardware, it doesn't have the same LIMITS as the original psx. your PC isn't actually speeding up the emulation in any way at all, but where there is extra power needed, the emulator can draw on the extra firepower of your PC's beefier CPU/GPU/RAM etc. the emulation is still ACCURATE, so to speak, but you are missing out on the "GENUINE" experience. anyways, i'd rather have the current state of the emu over the "genuine" one. i know this is basically what a couple of you already said, but i just felt i had to state it in a different way. hope it's clear enough for everyone to understand. I agree with this viewpoint, too. While pSX's more accurate emulation of a Playstation is what I like about it, I've no doubt that the slowdowns and any other bugs experienced on an actual Playstation were _not_ intended by Sony's designers, and even less by game designers. This, actually, is the other half of where I stand on all this. I do miss having patrickp around. I think he'd enjoy getting in on this conversation... |
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Post by psicomaniaco on Aug 3, 2009 7:09:24 GMT -5
Hahaha, I think I came off a bit grumpy. Wasn't my intention tho. About the few hours report, I see no problem when you say you played for a few hours, but most people play for some minutes and don't even mention that they haven't played the game to its fullest. And yeah, I remember that thread. Ever since I've noticed what pSX do, it became my favorite emulator. Its not even about the slowdowns only... most games seems to show more frames when using pSX; everything seems so smooth that makes me never wanna go back to the real console. I know not everyone notice this, but still... "...I've grown used to the fact that programmers sometimes do a crappy job of keeping within the limitations of the console." AHHHH, the Nes era. Who can forget the slowdowns on Megaman 3 when the screen had more than 3 sprites... Or the disapearing sprites on TMNT 3 when the screen is full... ... In those cases, I leave the better testing up to people like you... ;D By people like me, you mean "GEEK", right? |
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Post by Gamesoul Master on Aug 3, 2009 7:18:36 GMT -5
I certainly haven't forgotten those days... lol. That was most definitely the era of *very* interesting console programming.
And yeah, it's definitely frustrating when people report on a game as it's 100% working, and all they did was start it up and play the opening movie basically. And then we later find out that there's a fatal, unavoidable freeze halfway through the game... -.-
And when I said "people like you", I meant people who dedicate most of their forum contributions to compatibility testing (like you have, which is greatly appreciated), as compared to somebody like me who tries to do a little of everything around here (which is honestly a bit difficult at times, especially (for example) in my memory card conversion thread, which I sometimes want to just close because of all the simple requests that I stated in my first post should be done by *themselves* and not me).
But yes, you're a geek, just like the rest of us old-timers here... XD
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Post by psicomaniaco on Aug 3, 2009 7:34:47 GMT -5
And when I said "people like you", I meant people who dedicate most of their forum contributions to compatibility testing... Thats quite in the past, unfortunatelly... Now that I have two jobs and a family to raise, I haven't had the time to actually PLAY games...  Of course I'll try to FIND time to test games when 1.14 gets released, even if it means I have call in sick from work more frequently. |
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? In pSX?
