pSX too loud!

[gasmann]

Hello,

I'm new to pSX but do know quite a bit about epsxe. I was always using Pete's DSound plugin. The only game I play much is Final Fantasy 7.

Now to the problem: When I'm playing FF7 in pSX, I get ugly clipping noise when the music/sound effects get loud. This doesn't happen with Dsound plugin in ePSXe so it is definitely NOT my soundcard and NOT the game. I think pSX is outputting audio too loud so that it clips, because the volume level of Pete's plugin is much lower (I don't care how loud it is, but I don't want to hear clipping!).

So in next version could you please decrease output volume to avoid clipping or at least add an option to do this? Setting volume to a lower level (by using + and - keys) doesn't solve the problem, otherwise I wouldn't ask. This is the only thing which currently stops me from seriously using pSX. I want to enjoy the sound and music in full dynamic, so I would be very thankful if this could be realised in a future version.

Greets,
Thomas

[Gamesoul Master]

There *IS* an option! Didn't you even look through the options?!? Let me save you some trouble... PUSH THE MINUS KEY ON THE KEYPAD! Next time make some effort to find your answer.

[patrickp]

Sorry, I couldn't quite hear that, GM?

[Gamesoul Master]

Damn... my plugin has such a lower volume than Pete's... I forgot to switch to pSX before saying all that... XD

[gasmann]

It seems you don't understand what I want.

hoshikuzu said:

There *IS* an option! Didn't you even look through the options?!? Let me save you some trouble... PUSH THE MINUS KEY ON THE KEYPAD! Next time make some effort to find your answer.

gasmann said:

Setting volume to a lower level (by using + and - keys) doesn't solve the problem, otherwise I wouldn't ask.

This is the proof that you didn't even read my post.

And I don't understand why you can't take me serious.

The problem is that the sound itself is too loud. Making it quiter by using minus key is useless, because it only lowers volume *after* processing. It's like I would load a file in a WaveEditor, leave it in 16bits resolution and amplify everything by lets say 12dB. The result: (try it yourself if you don't believe me!) is a totally distorted sound. Even if you LOWER the level of this sound again by the same 12dB, it will still sound that bad. There's no way to get back what was clipped of by the way too loud volume set in the intermediate state.
Reducing volume with Minus in pSX is doing the same.

So what I meant was an option to decrease volume WHILE rendering sound, not AFTER it. I can as well lower volume in windows mixer, that would do the same as this plus-minus-key volume setting. It doesn't solve clipping.

In case you don't even know what clipping is, please read this

[patrickp]

I take your point, Thomas: however, most people don't have this problem; I certainly don't, so I don't think it's pSX's output level that's necessarily the cause.

You haven't, however, told us anything about your system: specifically what soundcard/drivers you are using, or what settings you have on the Sound tab in pSX's Configuration. Without this information, it's impossible to suggest possible solutions, and if you'd read the 'Things to Remember when Posting Reports' post in the banner above, you'd know you should have provided this information. It's all very well to say that Gamesoul Master didn't read your post properly, but equally, you don't appear to have bothered to read the required advice at all.

You say that

The only game I play much is Final Fantasy 7

This suggests you do play other games sometimes. You then say

When I'm playing FF7 in pSX, I get ugly clipping noise...

This, now, suggests that FF7 is the only game where you get sound distortion, but you don't make it very clear. Again, we need to know this in order to deal with your problem.

Edit: and I have to say that, specifically, I don't get _any_ sound distortion or clipping in Final Fantasy VII with pSX. Nor am I ignorant on this subject: I'm both a musician and a hifi enthusiast, and I have good ears, ever since I realised about 25 years ago how stupid it was to abuse them.

Edit 2: perhaps you should re-read that Wikipedia article on clipping, Thomas. It points out that clipping is caused by overdriving an audio device, which is typically caused by excessive internal gain levels in the device rather than excessive input levels, which is what you are suggesting.

Certainly, an excessive input level can cause distortion, but clipping, specifically, would be caused by the internal levels in your card or the amplifier you're using to drive your speakers.

[gasmann]

patrickp said:

You haven't, however, told us anything about your system: specifically what soundcard/drivers you are using, or what settings you have on the Sound tab in pSX's Configuration.

Sorry about this. Because it works with epsxe/peops dsound plugin just fine it can't be a hardware problem.
Anyway, my sound device is a PCI Card named 'Terratec 128iPCI', and it's equivalent to the ESS Solo-1 (1969). I'm using the drivers from esstech.com not the terratec ones because ESS dirvers are signed and Terratec drivers aren't.
CPU: Athlon XP 2400+
RAM 1x512 DDR 266
GPU nVidia GeForce 4 MX 440
Board Asrock K7VT2

Here's a screenshot from sound options:

patrickp said:

Without this information, it's impossible to suggest possible solutions, and if you'd read the 'Things to Remember when Posting Reports' post in the banner above, you'd know you should have provided this information. It's all very well to say that Gamesoul Master didn't read your post properly, but equally, you don't appear to have bothered to read the required advice at all.

My apologies. You're right, I didn't read them. I just did it now.

patrickp said:

You say that

The only game I play much is Final Fantasy 7

This suggests you do play other games sometimes. You then say

When I'm playing FF7 in pSX, I get ugly clipping noise...

This, now, suggests that FF7 is the only game where you get sound distortion, but you don't make it very clear. Again, we need to know this in order to deal with your problem.

I mean I only tested pSX with FF7. But I have been playing other games in epsxe some time ago.

Well I'll probably just have to take it everything as it is. I'll just let both epsxe and pSX installed so I can use both. Thanks for your help, anyway.

[Deleted]

Eventhough cockfighting is always fun, I'll just leave that to everyone else this time, and concentrate on the problem.

You should test some other games with pSX. It would be good to know, just in case. Also, as far as using drivers because they are not signed, that's just not right. Just because Microsoft hasn't tested them, it doesn't mean they don't work, they could infact work better in general. If you have the admin rights to the machine you use, I would test the Terratec drivers as well, just in case. Also, what version of pSX you are using?

[Gamesoul Master]

Well... how would you expect me to react? I read this problem, knowing instantly that it's not pSX's fault, as I have tested it on various sound cards, knowing that it's output is not regained or amplified or anything like that... you just have to have your sound card's volume controls set properly.

Check your sound card's wave and master volume. Between those two settings, the volume should never be any higher than, at most, 50% of maximum possible volume. And truly, I recommend being closer to 25%, which should be more than enough if you have any kind of decent speakers.

Pete's plugins, I've found, are *way* too quiet, even when set to Loudest, so it's no surprise you would think it's not your hardware. But really... pSX's volume output is where it should be, compared to other games/music on the computer. Which just means you should really make sure the volume settings for your sound card. I have mine at like 33% of maximum volume (50% would be way too much for my speakers if I turned up the volume really high). Doesn't help that ESS is horrible crap (no offense, but it's true). Ever consider getting a SoundBlaster card?

[patrickp]

Actually, I tried a Terratec 5.1 Fun card, which I think is similar to the one you have, Thomas, and one of the reasons I dumped it was because it would sometimes produce distorted sound. The other was that I was very unimpressed with the drivers: a few manual fixes were required after installing them and then, of course, I had to reverse the fixes to uninstall it. The uninstall was also less than satisfactory.

I tried a Hercules Muse 5.1 after that, which I think has the same or a very similar chip (in fact, I had to delete some of the .inf files in my WINNT directory because it kept trying to install as the Terratec card, for which the drivers didn't remove properly when uninstalled), and it was a great improvement. I found both the Terratec and the Hercules somewhat harsh sounding though, and as GM suggests, went back to Creative.

I always shy away from recommending Creative, because I've found some of their other products to be pretty poor, but they _do_ make some good soundcards - and they work.

The other soundcard I've had that was really nice was a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz. Probably the nicest sounding card I've ever had - gave it to a double-bass playing friend and he loves it - but it did seem to slow whatever system it was in (very badly in W98SE, not so badly, but still noticeably, in W2K), and was a pig to get working in Linux.

One thing you might try for pSX is configuring the card as Primary Sound Driver rather than the ESS soundcard.

[Gamesoul Master]

The SoundBlaster16 PCI card, though old, always worked really well for me. Also, the SoundBlaster 5.1 Live card is simply beautiful... I don't know how the Audigy cards are for people, but I've never needed or wanted anything more than my 5.1 Live. Very good card... very good, clean sound.

[pSX Author]

The problem is that the sound itself is too loud. Making it quiter by using minus key is useless, because it only lowers volume *after* processing. It's like I would load a file in a WaveEditor, leave it in 16bits resolution and amplify everything by lets say 12dB. The result: (try it yourself if you don't believe me!) is a totally distorted sound. Even if you LOWER the level of this sound again by the same 12dB, it will still sound that bad. There's no way to get back what was clipped of by the way too loud volume set in the intermediate state.
Reducing volume with Minus in pSX is doing the same.

So what I meant was an option to decrease volume WHILE rendering sound, not AFTER it. I can as well lower volume in windows mixer, that would do the same as this plus-minus-key volume setting. It doesn't solve clipping.

No, this is a problem with your setup. On a correctly configured setup the sound does not clip... it is _definately_ not clipped before output to the soundcard.

So what I meant was an option to decrease volume WHILE rendering sound, not AFTER it. I can as well lower volume in windows mixer, that would do the same as this plus-minus-key volume setting. It doesn't solve clipping.

That would be stupid - it would reduce the dynamic range of the output!