The crazy, "retro-game" idea

[Gamesoul Master]

RPG's evolving to the current generations of gaming (128-bit/256-bit) was almost the genre's downfall. Not in terms of popularity, but rather in terms of difficulty and soul. RPG's shifting from having these primary elements to an emphasis on graphics. What about the concept of a "remix"? Like Master Quest for Ocarina of Time. Same storyline, same graphics... but switched around so people who've played the original a lot (like me) would find it a new, different kind of challenge. Not that Ocarina of Time was hard, but Master Quest was awesome. Make a new Shining Force or Fire Emblem (sorry, kinda hooked on Tactical RPG's...) and make it with the same graphics, but 10x longer. Literally, make a game with at least 400+ hours to it. The level/stats system would have to be made to handle that, but otherwise it would be the greatest. I'm sure there are enough of us retro-gamers out there that still appreciate a long, difficult game without useless "bells and whistles" that they could make money off of something like that. Hell, it could've been done on the PS1. Is there something I'm missing here that would make this impossible? "It just wouldn't sell." Between XBox Live Marketplace and PS3's soon-to-be equivalent, I think they're starting to realize that there is still a market for retro-games, but why can't they just take that next step?

[kiru]

Thats a nice idea... but 400hours to finish a story? I doubt you play it all along with fun.
An example would be grandia1. It is very long but it gets very boring after you have played the game for 40hours or so... The real story starts a way too late. Grandia2 did a better job, even if those "short" rpg´s have always the "could it be longer" feeling, but this would destroy the tension.
Or starocean3... it´s long, but the storyline isn´t that good on the second disc... luckily the great gameplay is the same^^
So if i imagine a game, what offers 400h of gameplay and should give a good story what let you want to play on.. this is nearly impossible. Even the biggest and greatest books are shorter

Even so, if a game becomes developed and offers such a long storyline which is all the way good or great, i would buy it for sure..

[patrickp]

I think the essential problem is the same as with films and music: production costs have risen enormously, and necessitated selling to a wider market. This wider market probably contains a much higher proportion of relatively dumb punters, who really want to be impressed rather than involved. Not to mention the fact that the increased costs means that the funding is much more likely to come from organisations whose priorities are not great games, but games they can market - and super-impressive effects etc are what counts, not great gameplay.

In the past, games - and films and music - have been made by people who, regardless of whether it's a low-cost or high-cost production, have been involved in what they're doing. Now the people doing it are more involved in justifying themselves to accountants. And accountants don't have souls.

[kiru]

oh yeah... thats right, too
Come to think of working designs. Well they localized a few great rpg´s in usa, they had all bad graphics but... oh well, wd isn´t anymore what is very sad..

Today the graphics are the most important thing... but not every new rpg is really bad, infact the storytelling and character-developing got much more improved
Well, there are a few newer rpg´s which show you, that not all people want great graphics (disgea etc... oh and these strategy-rpg´s can be really long, easy 100h+)

[psicomaniaco]

kiru said:

oh yeah... thats right, too
Come to think of working designs. Well they localized a few great rpg´s in usa, they had all bad graphics...

Yeah. Not only that, but they used to localize games even though they knew it wouldn't sell good. Magic Knoght of Rayearth for the Sega Saturn is a nice example: The saturn was already dying on the USA, but WD released it anyway. And they did a very good job IMHO, as this game has one of the best localizations I've ever seen.

The same goes for Vay (Sega CD).

[Gamesoul Master]

I suppose 400+ hours of gameplay might be a bit of an exaggerated example on my part. I would have to say no shorter than 200+ hours, though. Remember Shining Force with 8 chapters? Make it at least 40-50 chapters. But... this is only my dream, and I'm sure that they will never fully buy into it. That's why I've been doing my best to improve my programming skills. If none of the various companies will buy into the idea... I'll make the games myself. And when the time comes when I can do this, if I have to do it alone and devote years of my life to it, then fine. With graphics being the least of my concern (most likely between high-end SNES and decent PSX graphics), time would not be such an issue. Storyline... I've already been working on for a couple years now. If my dream can't come true, then I will at least make the same dream come true to the best of my abilities for fellow gamers.

Grandia 1 and 2... both good games, loved the storylines, not nearly long enough. Star Ocean 3... loved the storyline. I'm playing that, too, currently (I play a lot of games at one time in an attempt to make them seem to last longer)... it's a little longer, but still not nearly as long as I would want. See... I never have this problem with storylines feeling like they've been too drawn out or just become boring. These three games I loved, Final Fantasy 6 and 9 (both of which I've heard complaints about storyline for) had storylines I loved and never got bored with. I guess that, being an avid reader also, I'm used to the concept that a good storyline doesn't have to being interesting and/or action-packed throughout all of it. There will be parts where it is logical or needed for it to settle down for a little while. I find those parts to be equally enjoyable. My story doesn't have much of that (because I know how people are, so I try to walk a line between practical and wanted).



Ultima: Edit instead of double-posting :(

[kiru]

hm...grandia1 has one big problem... sometimes there are HUGE levels between the story (after you get banned of rapp´s village) Character-developing is very important so don´t get me wrong

About making a rpg yourself.. i thought of something like that myself. A story would be not that big problem and a fightingsystem as well. (well i have ideas for more than at least two games^^) But, like you, i have no skills in making an own rpg and until i get my new pc i will not begin (hopefully this year...)

Probably the easiest start would be to use a rpg-maker. You can´t make an own battle-system but at least try a bit and make a short rpg for yourself (and don´t forget the music^^)

[Gamesoul Master]

Ultima: sorry about the double-post. I have a bad habit of quick-replying when I think of something to say after the fact. I will take care not to do that in the future.

kiru: I've actually already started my game in RPG Maker (first with the PSX version a few years ago, and now with RPG Maker 2000 for PC). It's coming along pretty decently. A custom battle system is more possible than you might think. In RPG Maker 2000, it allows the use of switches and such within battle, and switches make just about anything possible. Hell, you could make real-time battles if that is more your style. The possibilities still boggle me. And I can only imagine that RPG Maker XP (which isn't freeware unfortunately) provides even more possibilities.

Were I to try and start my RPG right now, a few things would severely limit me. I'd have to use C++, which is fine, but I don't know 100% of its "ins and outs" yet. Graphics is the most lacking for me. The game would not look nice at all, and I'm sure there would be many things that I would be needlessly doing the hard way. For practical intent, it would be smarter for me to get a bit better at programming before I start. Maybe someday we can compare notes on our thoughts so far. I could just imagine, months from now, a bunch of us starting a project like this... it would be interesting...

[kiru]

In my case rpg-makers doesn´t work on my pc.. kinda sad. I have a little soundproblem with directx and midis used in this kind of programs. Everytime i want to start one, my pc crashes. Same thing if i click on "sound" of directx in everest. I really tried a lot to solve this problem, but it didn´t work... well if i get this good features in a rpg-maker it would be great can´t really wait to begin^^

[ripper713]

Besides the increased production costs of creating a 200+ hour game, developers probably will never make a game nearing that length because they have lost their creativity. It is the same with movies and television. Everything these days seems to be either a sequel (or prequel) or a spin-off. If companies started making games that took the average player a year or more to complete, then who would buy the sequels? I believe the main problem is that shorter games = more games purchased even if the gamer's enjoyment suffers.

[Gamesoul Master]

I know... that's why the idea is "crazy"... because people would actually be able to sit down and play a good game that doesn't have so many "bells and whistles" and will last them for at least a couple months.

[thedigitalnomad]

Although not exactly related to this thread, but since the discussion seems to be somewhat aimed at RPGs, I personally would like to see more actual RPGs, and not the "Final Fantasy" style "3rd person stat-based interactive novels" as I affectionately call them. While I'm not necessarily saying that the Final Fantasy (and similar) games are bad or anything, they're just not actually RPGs (although, for simplicity's sake, I casually refer to them as RPGs). I was just in a discussion about this today with a friend who happens to be obsessed with the Final Fantasy franchise, and vehemently asserts that they are RPGs (and is too stubborn to understand my statement about them not being RPGs), actually.

Anyhow. I would like to see more games with open-ended, somewhat non-linear gameplay. A true RPG does not force players into a persona that they do not have any kind of control over character development. The thing with FF and similar games, is that the roles are all predestined, and leave no room for personal character development, which to me is the entire heart and soul of an RPG.

The best examples I can think of, and although I'm a bit biased since I'm an über fanboy, are the first two Fallout games for PC (If any of you are familiar with them). You have a general story to follow, but you can go to it however the hell you please. If you play your cards right, you can beat the first game in probably little over half an hour, or you can extend your experience to days on end doing the multitudes of side quests, all in any order that you choose (more or less), all the while developing your character however you choose.

I suppose another couple of great examples would be Morrowind and Oblivion.

I would love to see more games like these, and I suppose you could consider the ideas "retro," looking back at the ancient Pool of Radiance games that our gaming forefathers played on dinosaur computers back in the stone age. XD

I don't understand how RPGs went from such groovy open-endedness, to the interactive novels we mostly have today... But I'm really hoping that games start to make a return to this style of gameplay. With hits like Morrowind and Oblivion, and the GTA series, I have a feeling that more open-ended, non-linear gaming is going to make a comeback.

So, uh. Yeah. That's my opinion.

[kiru]

Well, there are a lot of those "rpg's" but in most cases only for pc..

There are two different types of rpg's out there:

1: Japanese rpg's: Story and characters are important, gamaplay can be weak

2: non-linear rpg's, without a thick storyline, most likely quest-based

You can't compare them, they are like day and night. You probably won't like both as well.

Personally i don't like characters without a soul. ("silent chars" in rpg's)
Therefore i play the japanese rpg's like ff, grandia, tales etc etc

[thedigitalnomad]

kiru said:

Personally i don't like characters without a soul. ("silent chars" in rpg's)

You've never played Fallout then. The dialog in that game is so great, and the best part is getting to chose what you want to say. I like playing the "Japanese" RPGs as well as the non linear ones, but I dislike calling the JRPGs RPGs since there's not much actual role playing. You're still constricted to playing the game exactly how the developers want you to. There's not much "role playing" going on in that situation. More like... role experiencing?

[kiru]

yeah, they are like an interactive movie or something like that. However, the story is (in most cases) better than in the "real" rpg's and the chars as well. I like a nice fairy-tale even if it so linear like grandia2.
A good story has to have a few things which have to occur or the story is boring. Beeing able to do everything you like would destroy this story-telling so there is only a (in my eyes) bad story without much background etc.

p.s.: yeah, I never played fallout I tried neverwinter nights, gothik, morrowind, dungeon siege and maybe one or two more, but all of them hadn't a good story. (i haven't played them for long though) However that doesn't mean that every j-rpg has a great storyline or chars

edit: why i don't like "silent-characters"= The games can only give you a few lines to choose from... Furthermore the people you speak to will speak for you and give you your "answers"... Thats not enough for me, a cause why I don't like dq8.

However, if you could type your answers etc. it would be called rl (okay, there you speak :>)

Identifying with the hero (with a soul) is far better because the dialogue will be much more natural + since you feel with him you are in his role as well = rpg